ORC 4 Pros / Cons

[ktisdall]

OK, ready, aim FIRE!

Your thoughts on why/why not require the ORC 4 safety regulations?

Be mindful of a couple of thoughts here:

1) you really should download the ORC 4 rules, read them and examine your boat before posting.

2) Not EVERYTHING in the '13 pages of requirements' is REQUIRED. Many items are recommended and optional. Some of those pages affect only Multi-Hulls (in the main ORC 4 regs). Also, MOST production boats already have all of the construction features involved. Your Olson or Catalina or J boat or Cal or Pearson are not going to need renovations to the hull or deck to comply. ORC 4 does not cover OD boats. Their own class safety rules would be in effect.

3) If one boat carries safety gear and another doesn't, the boat that does not comply competes unfairly. ORC 4 sets a level of safety compliance that is fairly easy for everyone to achieve and most required equipment is also required by State Law.

4) As a result of a good discussion here, and your thoughts on this issue directed to the WSC officers, we can certainly exempt or modify some of the items if they seem over-the-top for our races. A storm sail, for instance, probably doesn't make sense for the Commodore's Cup but would definitely be a good idea for The WSC Overnight.

Let 'er rip.....

--Kevin

[Admin - Bob Adams]

Kevin,

Good topic.

Do you know of a link that has the ORC 4 regs? What governing body makes those rules? I've checked US Sailing and ECSA, and Googled "ORC 4", but couldn't find them anywhere. Maybe it would be a good thing if we were able to easily quote passages in the rules for this discussion.

[ktisdall]

Bob,
Funny you should ask.... A link to the ORC 4 extract for Monohulls only is on the links section of this web site. windjammers.org/links.html

ISAF is the governing body (sailing.org). ISAF has evolved out of international governing bodies going back to the late 1800's. You can also register your sailor 'category' with ISAF for events such as the Marion-Bermuda and Newport-Bermuda. Sailor category relates to whether you are a 'professional' or not.

The link on the WSC site takes you directly to the PDF which is easy to print. It really works best to take the list to your boat and check off the stuff you have vs. the stuff you're not sure about vs. the stuff you know you need. Then let's talk.

I can't imagine a non-modified production sailboat that would not pass the construction features (hull/deck/lifelines). Things like figuring out a way to retain hatch boards ar easy to do. Trust me, when you get knocked down you'll be looking for them.

That would take care of probably half the pages. Be careful to note the things that are required ("shall provide" or "must have") and not just recommended ("should have").

Again, we can modifiy items that are truly silly for our racing format and venue.

--Kevin

[spirit]

I think it's wrong to "require" compliance with orc 4. It will reduce the number of entrants and will open the door to protests based on compliance.

[Admin - Bob Adams]

Yeah, I kind of agree with you Jim. I think too much regulation is a bad thing; part of our deciding whether to start or continue a race is based upon the idea that we are responsible for ourselves. If we don't feel comfortable continuing, we always have the option of quitting.

Having that much more fodder for protesting a race would be detrimental to the intent of the sport. If I need to retain my hatchboards, I close the top hatch. The rule won't necessarily make any difference to someone who has them and doesn't use them. Ultimately, the safety of our boats and our crews is due in large part to our judgement. No amount of safety equipment is going to help someone with bad judgement, regardless of what ORC 4 equipment is on their boat.

Part of what bothers me most about it is the fact that you have to take the time to STUDY the ORC 4s to figure out what is needed in your boat's case. Going through 13 pages of rules that read only slightly less interestingly than sewing machine instructions, and then having to weed out the stuff that doesn't even apply to you is annoying. Taking the time to be "...careful to note the things that are required ('shall provide' or 'must have') and not just recommended ('should have')...." illustrates my point. I don't wanna have to be a lawyer to participate in a race.

We're all big boys and girls out there, and if a skipper decides he (or she) wants to put a liferaft on their cabintop for a race, that's fine with me. I just don't want to see it written into the rules someday.

[ktisdall]

Bob,

You are correct. It's not possible to legislate common sense.

However you are also naive. When you close your hatch to retain your hatchboards, what keeps the hatch closed? What if someone is inside? Can they get out if you close up outside? Can you get in if they close up inside? If the boat is fully knocked down (extremely possible in a squall) can you be certain the hatch will stay closed and keep the boards in? On the next knockdown will they still be there? Or will the cabin now be open and the boat sinks?

These things happen. It is reality. Boats sink and flip in races. People die in LI Sound, even on big boats. ORC safety regs are required in most LIS races (Off Soundings, Block Island Race, Edlu, BIRW, Vineyard, Around LI, AYC Spring and Fall Series) and the list goes on. I need to check, but ORC 4 may be required for all YRALIS circuit races.

The difference in Milford is that people want to keep it simple here. They also don't want to worry about safety or really knowing any of the other rules of sailing. Just go out for a few hours and be done with it.

As a protest committee, I'd look very carefully at the protestER to see if they are fully equipped. Then see if the protestEE is missing something really serious. Also to see if they have complied with most everything and possibly have made an oversight. Mostly it is not possible for competitors to know about each others state of compliance.

Also if that turns out to be a widely-held belief we could make it impossible for competitors to protest ORC 4, only RC may. Or we could inspect both boats involved in a protest. You might win the protest and be tossed by the RC for ORC 4.

Again, it is not a difficult task to take the ORC 4 regs down to your boat with a friend and a couple of beers and go through the list. You will find most of what you need. The rest we can talk about.

Laziness is not an excuse. We are talking about improving safety on the water and ensuring a common playing field, giving everyone standards to work with.

So far, no one has come up with an item in the regs that they feel is too difficult to deal with. To me that means everyone that is complaining has no idea what is in the regs. Until someone has a real regs related issue I'm still waiting for a valid complaint, Although the protest point is taken.

--Kevin

[spirit]

ktisdall said:

Bob,


So far, no one has come up with an item in the regs that they feel is too difficult to deal with. To me that means everyone that is complaining has no idea what is in the regs. Until someone has a real regs related issue I'm still waiting for a valid complaint, Although the protest point is taken.

--Kevin

Kevin you are waiting for people to broadcast their non compliance. Don't hold your breath. Also I don't know how wide an audience this thread has but everyone I have spoken to thinks it should be "recommend" not required. If Bob has a forward hatch then he has another escape route. I don't think you will remove the ORC 4 requirement no matter what so this is a moot point. I will see to it that Spirit complies. I just hope it doesnt hurt participation.

[Admin - Bob Adams]

Kevin,

I'm resigned to the fact that since every other facet of our lives is becoming over-regulated, sailboat racing will inevitably follow. My concern is that all the fun will get regulated out of the sport. This year ORC 4; what about next year?

My example above showing what a short passage in the rules looks like is only one paragraph out of 13 pages. What if someone overlooks one little insignificant thing in those rules and is penalized for it? Sailboat racing may soon have all the appeal of a trip to the DMV. On a Saturday.

You asked for opinions. No amount of regulation will make sailing completely accident proof. If we really want to be safe, we should stay on shore.

Bob

[ktisdall]

What I am hoping for is an open discussion about the regs, with the intention of modifying truly over-the-top elements so that people don't suffer financially or time-wise in order to comply. That discussion can not take place if people don't read the regs and audit their boats and bring up the big problems with compliance.

I doubt there is much of an audience yet on this forum (sorry Bob, but I'm grateful you got it going - thanks) but I hope more folks put in their 2 cents. The WSC officers would not use the discussion here or elsewhere to penalize boats in future races. We want people to race safely, not find a way to throw people out of races. If someone is mostly in compliance and only missing something minor (like a flare out of date on a day race) it would simply not be an issue.

I am confident that if people would really read the regs and audit their boats they would find most everything that is required. It is possible to accomplish the same thing by having a USCG-A inspection. You will not get a ticket and you'll know what is missing. If you pass, you get their sticker. And it's free. And if you pass you'll have most of the ORC 4 regs covered.

People want this to be recommended so they can ignore it. We don't want then to ignore safety, and we want the ones that comply to have a level playing field.

To Bob's points, you are no more safe on shore than on a properly prepared boat in my opinion. I'm not an old salt yet but I have enough ocean miles to know that is true. It takes preparation though. Safety prparation is 'scalable' to the venue you sail in. The ORC regs are an outline to help be prepared correctly based on the area you sail in.

I am grateful for the opinions. I'm hoping for more and REALLY hoping someone will do the audit and see what they think after that.

--Kevin

[spirit]

ktisdall said:

People want this to be recommended so they can ignore it.

Thats simply not true. When you race the smallest lightest boat in the ECSA fleet you are acutely aware of safety issues. And I still am as it's my responsibility that everyone in my (generally) green crew returns safely. I have done the audit and have been for years. And lazy sailboat owner is kind of a contradiction in terms though I suppose it's all relative. Perhaps the requirement is litigation driven? Kind of a disclaimer if anyone gets hurt? Still though we are kicking around a dead horse here between the three of us and it would be nice if some others would chime in but again don't hold your breath for arguments against the rule, though without question there will be many boats that do not comply. Be assured though that I am not "lazy" and I do not want to "ignore" safety issues and to suggest as much is curious. I'm sure the rule will stand and I can deal with it. I just don't agree with it, for reasons already stated.

[Admin - Bob Adams]

This message forum has only JUST started...as more people find out about it, we'll get more input. For now, I'm playing devil's advocate, and voicing what I think some objections might be raised.

The good thing about this forum is that all the messages stay up indefinitely (unless deleted by the poster), so as people come aboard, they'll be able to catch up on the discussions and post their own input.

Be sure to spread the word about this forum, and remind them that there's a link on the main page of Windjammers.org.